Scaramouche brings news of yet another Sudden Jihad Syndrome (SJS) incident from Nebraska.
What is more personally traumatic right at this very moment, however, is that an old girlfriend of mine has become a Muslim.
She is from a one Western country and was raised in another Western country, and the last I heard of her she had married a Muslim. Nothing ususual, she always had an interest in "Eastern" things and that's common enough these days. She is currently working for a UN agency in a particularly tough Islamic country, but kept contact on Facebook regularly. We discussed Islam frequently, but she never revealed to me that she had converted.
She was clearly sympathetic to the faith, but I gave my opinions as honestly and as sensitively as I could, all backed up by facts, polling data, Koran quotes, etc, and got the usual replies about how rubbish the West is, how we're the real barbarians and how the West oppresses women by having inflated ideas of beauty leading to bulimia etc. She told me about how angry some Australians were when a Muslim kid pissed on a bible at camp (how many riots were there and how many Mosques burnt down? I asked) as being equivalent to Muslim anger over Koran burning.
I was reluctant to carry on the conversation in any case, but would not have done if I'd known she was a practising Muslim (albeit a Sufi according to her). She deliberately withheld that information from me and I'm really sickened over it. Even though I had my best 'culturally sensitive' hat on, she still managed to tell me I'd insulted her (she was none too complimentary about my Western culture, which I pointed out) and that I was "raving", despite demonstrating a wide and knowledgeable view of Islam in all its guises.
Here's an excerpt:
"First off, not all Western countries ban them [burqas], and have only started doing so in the face of increased resurgence of Islam in the West generally. I don't approve of it, because I think there should rather be a law against forcing someone ELSE to wear certain clothing, which gets to the heart of the issue. Burqa-wearing is NOT a choice, it's forced and women have been murdered for refusing to wear them, in the US and Canada. Turkey and Algeria ban them too, in certain circumstances, because they understand that a burqa is no more a piece of clothing than a gun is just some bits of metal.I explained the differences (as I saw them) between Wahhabism and North African culture, Pakistani culture, Persian culture and even Cape Town Muslims all to no avail. Despite being aware of all these things, I was spouting "propaganda" which was "vitriolic", and promptly got deleted from her Facebook.
In the cases where it is a choice, it is also a rejection of Western values, NOT a preservation of Eastern ones. Why? because the Koran only commands modesty - and Western standards of modesty are much 'lower' (as you pointed out) than Saudi Arabian ones. But weaers are choosing the Saudi definition, which is a new thing because as you've also mentioned, Muslims in the West have for decades - and even in Egypt and other countries too, particularly Iran - not covered their faces or heads. In Cape Town, they usually just wear scarves, but recently the full coverings have become more common. The change represents a fundamental rejection of Western values, which (rightly) raises suspicions about what else they might be asserting."
The word "intolerant" springs to mind, and I don't think it refers to me.
***UPDATE***
Having calmed down considerably, and chatted with another friend, I've come to realise this: most Western "converts" to Islam call themselves "Sufis". Because why? It's Islam Lite, that's why, a trendy way of showing your multicult cool without having to do any of the hard stuff that Islam commands. And Sufism is not the whole of Islam, indeed a lot of it is considered outside the bounds of Islam by a lot of Muslims.
Bottom line: I'm not interested in being lectured on the "diversity" of Islam by someone who is on the very fringes of it themselves. Such friends I can do without.
Viking - I can only shake my head. You are right - these Sufis are the lite version of a barbaric, backward "religion". One can only hope that she experiences the full joy of being a Muslim sooner rather than later. In any case, I've come to the conclusion, no matter how you try to reason with these types of people, they still can't see the forest for the trees. I'm currently having a "conversation" with a liberal on my blog and I've had to bite my tongue and try to remain cool and calm, although boiling inside. There really is no common ground and the world is in trouble if this is the product of our current civil society. Here's the link to my village idiot:
ReplyDeletehttp://ozziesaffa.blogspot.com/2010/09/anti-immigrant-wave-spreads-across.html?showComment=1285302933995#c2514609608115998526
Delete the person from your friends list.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the support, guys.
ReplyDeleteLime, just had a look at that conversation - very interesting! the "right-wing Zionist" comment was a real slip :)
FishEagle - even though, apparently, I'm the "intolerant" one, SHE deleted ME.
This is the money quote:
"The big differences is that polling data from France, the Netherlands and Britain (and Ireland too) shows that the difference between the huge majority of moderate Muslims and the admittedly few extremist ones is that a large number WANT the death penalty for "apostasy" but aren't willing to blow up buildings to get it. In other words, they support 90% of the goals of the extremists, but don't support the violence.
So, what's "moderate" about them is not that they're pro-Western but that they're not violently anti-Western."
A normal person's response is, "what polling data?"
But she has nicely internalised that uniquely Muslim right to be "insulted" at the drop of a hat, despite my having pointed out that her conversion is just as much an insult to my beliefs and culture, it being a formal rejection of them.
Tim, with respect, you're a typical whitey victim. You were still waiting for her to catch up with the principles after you found yourself judged by her. Rather share your good principles with similar minded people. There is a lesson in that for the West. Deal with the loss of the friend/society when it stares you in the face. Don't try to 'educate' to spare yourself from loss.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Loss is part of life. In Western civlization we've come to fear it too much.
ReplyDeleteEh?
ReplyDeletewell you're partly right, as I wrote when I updated the post. I don't need friends like that.
But, politics aside, when a friend turns on you, what do you make of it? Letting it affect you is part of being human, and I don't apologise for my initial shock, however much I now think, screw her.
Westerners who hate the West and 'go native' make my stomach turn; and the worst part of all is, they expect us to think they're some kind of heroes.
Tim, I'm sorry about your friend. For a woman, she sure pulled a dick move.
ReplyDeleteYou know what I say to her. Fine. I'm an intolerant barbarian that oppresses women by insisting they be beautiful and not be hidden behind massive bags of black cloth. I am everything negative you say about me.
But since when were those things bad? What makes them bad? What makes your way of life so much better than mine?
The numbers of Westerners that are converting concerns me. I don't have precise figures, but however many it is, it concerns me. Maybe because I'm Asatru, and know that us polytheists will be on the list as first to go, but it adds an element to my own religious path in the issue of bringing people into the "faith" so to put it. Do I want quality people who will stick with it, or do I want to be one of those people who pushes for quantity and hope that if the purge does come, some survive? It's kinda like, do you want 10,000 Athenians or 300 Spartans?
There are no easy answers in this life. You tried to help your friend, and in spite of your best efforts she went Muslim anyways. I suspect part of your hurt is you think you failed, in addition to her lying to you. I know you and the others here do not share my beliefs, but I think we all see Islam as a great monster that is coming to devour us all. That even one is lost to it, is a sorrow that hurts every one of us.
May she find the Peace of Allah, a bitter pill.
I shall take the War of the Aesir, and find it a sweet mead.
In addition. I think, Tim, that if Westerners want to "go native" they would do well to look to the past of their own peoples, rather than someone else's. It's what I did, lol.
ReplyDeleteYou know what, Norse? Not only do I really appreciate your words (thanks), but think you've hit on something really important. Why are not more people fascinated by their own historical native beliefs than with those of foreigners?
ReplyDeleteThere has surely been some neo-pagan revivals, and they have often tended to be tree-hugging hippie in orientation - the New Age. An ironic name because while it's views are in fact new, its adherents claim they're ancient. But there are also those who want to reclaim something genuinely lost from the past.
The Norse past that I claim is not based on language or place of birth but a sense in which the areas my ancestors came from are heavily Norse and Danish influenced: Yorkshire in England, the North of Ireland and the Scottish lowlands. Ancient Norse culture fascinates me and I identify with it in a way that I can't readily explain, and although I still broadly identify as Christian, or Deist, venerating the ancient ways does not in any way seem 'blasphemous' to me.
The idea of taking on someone else's history seems bizarre to me.
In realation to my friend, she rejects the West. Her dad was a Vietnam vet and she claims that's what started her Eastward journey.
The funny thing is, I have lots of friends who are atheists, Asatru, Jewish, Muslim, socialist, whatever, and all of them know what I believe and none have ever turned on me like the one Western convert to Islam.
The final straw for her was realising that I had a broad, culturally sensitive and knowledgeable view of Islam in all its guises and forms, and was not the thuggish,ignorant, knuckle-dragging moron she believed she was trying to 'educate'.
Hey Tim. Sorry if I was a bit insensitive to the loss of your friend. (Having a really big dig at just about everything today - just a mood and I'm waiting for it to pass over.) I have brooded for days when one of my friends turned on me. You're the last person that I need to remind that her behaviour is rooted in hatred and insecurity. Nothing good can come of it and it's very serious. I probably wouldn't have spent so much time trying to convince her using logical argument, though. Finding help would mean having to dig deep into her psychology and she needs to seek that kind of help first, anyway. People that are in that much trouble find comfort in theory, regardless of the development of cognitive dissonance with time. I think that if we try to engage with these people in an intellectual sense we are actually just making things worse. There is a reason that they are attracted to a fundamentalist religious ideology like Islam, even if she is just a so-called moderate Sufi. They seek spiritual peace, not logic. The answer they seek is in reason, but not logical thinking - rather empirical thinking. An engagement on the web about political issues can't give her that.
ReplyDeleteI had a liberal friend on facebook that once commented on one of my political posts. When I responded with a comment, he never responded again. I then sent him a personal message, although I started the message with a request that he could just acknowledge if he's not interested in further conversation. I was happy to agree-to-disagree and leave it at that. When he never responded I deleted him from my friend list. I will see him again at some point and I will continue as before with our friendship, as if nothing happened. My experience tells me that he will turn out to be uber friendly on that occasion, which is the exact opposite reaction that I would have gotten if I tried to ignore what happened. I would have brewed on my anger and then he would have sensed it.
I have lost nothing, because I already knew he was a liberal idiot. He lost out though, because he never understood where I was coming from. Since I believe my reasoning is better than his, I'd prefer that I'm the one in a position of power. The power is limited, but it's still something that can be used for furthering a good cause instead of feeding something evil.
Your friend transferred her pain and sense of loss to you and you shouldn't allow it. But I'm glad you have support from us bloggers, even though some of us are lousy at putting our friend's needs above our own when we are having a bad day. :p You're worth it and I don't have any excuse. Now you can do a L'Oreal advertisement, because you're 'worth it.' LOL. Just being silly.
Tim, I am glad my words helped.
ReplyDeleteI too am not sure entirely why people reject looking at their Native Western Heritage, though I have a few theories. I think it is because so many of the Typical Western Attitudes can be traced back to the NWH, ideas like equality, democracy, individuality, the admiration of strength and power, etc. Due to Christianity (and I intend to personal insult to your beliefs) and it's abhorrence of those things in favor of a giving oneself over to the Will of God, and it's promotion of humility, meekness, poverty, etc, having so deeply entered the mind of Westerners, they now reject the foundations of Western Civilization for the culture of Eastern Civilizations. (This is important, as most people do not tend to realize that Christianity and its culture are Eastern in origin, so long has it been associated with Europe, I actually only really though about it myself after listening to some songs by a band call Tyr, who are rather anti-Christian and tend to emphasize that it is not of the West, but of the East.)
In an odd way, the culture of the Native Pagans lasted into and defined a lot of the Christian Era, just as the ideals and culture of the Christians now make up much of the culture of the Left/Socialist Post-Christian Era. At least from my point of view. (again, no personal insult is meant here) I tend to see a lot of the Christian attitudes as the basis for Socialism, only with God being replaced by Government and people insisting on their rewards in this life as opposed to the next.
Where I'm going with this is that "Christianity" in the form we've had it for over a thousand years, has so demonized the Native Pagan ways of Europe, that most Westerners are unable to take it seriously, where as Eastern religions don't really have that problem. Combine this with a hatred of what Western Culture really is, and the fact that Eastern Culture (which they've been taught is good with its emphasis on collectivization, submission to authority, and anti-individualism) is so much the Opposite of Western Culture, and you might be hitting on why so many Westerners don't look back to their Ancient Heritage.
But that's just my thoughts.
Hey Tim, you might find this interesting. I wonder if it might have something to do with your friend's conversion to Islam.
ReplyDeletehttp://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/09/peace-through-rape.html
It's funny you should mention that, I read the story last night (not on GoV though) and thought it fitting.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if the chick I know was ever abused - I don't think so actually - but this idea of getting into those type of situations gels very well with the ideology of self-loathing that exists behind it.
My take on it is that these women feel SO guilty for being white and Western that the only thing that can assuage that guilt is to be permanently surrounded by smiling (grateful and forgiving) brown faces.
I consider it fundamentally racist, as their only motivation to help others is to be forgiven by them, and the 'brownness' of the others is central to that need. They're not being helped becauase they're in need, but because they're not white.
I'm I way off base here?
I think those who support Palestinian Nationalism are a good example; their own nationalism is unfashionable, and they would consider it coarse and unworthy, but the nationalism of others is somehow more worthy and noble?
Actually, you sound right on target, and it would line up well with my own theory.
ReplyDeleteThat's one of the things I like about the Reconstructionist religions like Asatru, Hellenism, and Khemetics, it because (at least with Asatru anyways) there is a lot of emphasis on taking pride in who you are and where you come from. We could do with more of that these days.
Tim, I still think you should take that thought process further. There is always a source of fear that drives someone on a path of destruction, which is invariably coupled with poor understanding of the fear. Understanding is usually even less if the person experienced any form of personal trauma or arrested emotional development. There is a valid concern and collective sense of guilt that we all face, as whites, which no other race seems to have. We are the race that destroyed the environment. People that don't want to face that fact are cowards. I work with a lot of liberals/lefties that are the first to admit we have a responsibility towards the environment but that's where it ends. They are the one's that highlight the problem and expect others to fix it, without taking any sense of responsibility themselves. Whites don't want to look back into their history because they will never be able to escape the reality that our achievements in civilization and spirituality came at a cost in our environment. They'd rather embrace another race or culture with its associated history than have to delve into the conundrum. Your friend is an intellectual and emotional coward and deep down inside she knows it.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.metapedia.org/wiki/White_Guilt
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting entry in Wikipedia about white guilt. But most importantly, it states that "white guilt has spread at the beginning of the 60s."
Just around the time when the Rachel Carson published Silent Spring (1962), which "brought environmental concerns to an unprecedented portion of the American public." She was a "nature writer whose writings are credited with advancing the global environmental movement." (Slso from Wikipedia.)
Nowhere have there been bloodier wars than in Europe. Nobody can seriously expect me to believe that now, suddenly in a matter of a few years, the white race shot up the civilization ladder to such a peak that they developed a collective guilt over the collective murder of a handful number of people from other races.
Wikipedia, with its leftist bias, even states, "Actually it is unlikely that any of these "genocides" ever took place, in fact both the United States and Australia (as well as many other countries such as South Africa) were little inhabitated as indigenous populations were not able to provide sufficient food for living there."
So wtf is going on there?! Don't expect me to believe that people just like to feel bad. Nobody is driven by such a desire. The bad feelings are a response to an outside influence, which nobody has acknowledged.
Tim, if you want to help your friend, go recycle your dustbin contents or plant an indigenous tree :)
Heh.
ReplyDeleteI just bought 'Ethical Oil' by Ezra Levant. Should be good...
People don't like to feel bad, they like to feel good by having their guilt squashed and forgiven. White Guilt started after WW2 as a result of the horrors of war, and extended through the 60s and the period of decolonisation until now.
I truly, honestly believe it's reached its end though, as people are waking up realising they've been fed a pile of shit by people who just want to control them for their own miserable ends.
Which should mute the idea of "collective guilt" . There's nothing collective about brainwashing.
@Norse,
ReplyDeleteTaking pride in who you are and where you came from should be a given:
I think it's telling that the liberals who tell us that personality is just a response to societal and historical factors and there's no such thing as the individual, are the same who tell us to ignore those factors!
Here is another perspective, although I think it's all related, (bearing in mind that sexuality must be related to the human population size) -
ReplyDeleteThat revolution was not solely sexual, just as the Socialist Revolution in Russia was not only or exactly about Socialism. However, if people ever use the word “revolution” with respect to the events of the sixties, they usually talk about sexual revolution.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/09/story-of-two-revolutions.html#more
Tim, I agree that WW2 had a big part to play in the development of white guilt, but I don't think that is all there is to it. I used to think so but not anymore.
The Russian Revolution, which started in 1917 according to the post, needs further investigation. Also, the fall of the Roman Empire needs to be investigated further. I don't have such a great knowledge of history but I suspect the environmental resources available to these societies became limited, which triggered the change.
As much as I admire the human resource in all it's glory and horror, we're responsive to external factors more than we like to give credit.
I hope you'll be giving us some new insight after reading Ethical Oil! :)
OK, it's late. My last comment should have read -
ReplyDeleteAs much as I admire the human *race* in all it's glory and horror, we're responsive to external factors more than we like to give credit.
Aha, right on cue, a little piece on environmental degradation in Wikipedia:
ReplyDeleteThe decline of the Roman Empire - Another theory is that gradual environmental degradation caused population and economic decline. Deforestation and excessive grazing led to erosion of meadows and cropland. Increased irrigation caused salinization. These human activities resulted in fertile land becoming nonproductive and eventually increased desertification in some regions. Many animal species become extinct.
It's always poverty that drives conflict and revolution and poverty is related to available natural resources, directly or indirectly.
This discussion is not relevant in the sense that there is hope that revolution, conflict, white guilt, etc. may be prevented from continuing to take place in our Western culture. I'm making the point that it is inevitable. The global number of people has already breached a critical number that the environment can't sustain. I somehow find comfort in knowledge about my abilities to have an impact on our society and simultaneously, knowing my limitations. I'm saying it is impossible to try to save our culture by running after those individuals that have already abandoned it. You may still be able to save your friendship though, if you are able to look past her new religion. I wouldn't be able to do it though because I'm not that big a person.